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From:  Stefan Woehrmann
Date:  Fri Jul 7, 2000  9:39 pm
Subject:  Re: rotation symbols and directions

Hi Valerie, hello Ingvild, he Jerry , hi Angus, hi *Joe, hi Charles ... and

it`s very nice from you to give me the feeling that itīs not me alone who is
too studid to understand these things. And Valerie you are right - itīs so
interesting - although none of my students would be able to explain this
question - nevertheless none of them made any mistake in moving his hands -
showing that kind of rotation movement - I want to describe -
So these are two different issues -- to be able to acept movement spelling
for a well -known sign and to be able to analyze this spelling.
I feel happy to get encouraged by Ingvild and Jerry to keep up my
curiosity - until I have found the underlying concept.

When I read your description and analyzed your gifs - I got the idea that -
perhaps I have understood one principle.

So I sat down and wrote different rotation signs (just phantasie - no
typical DGS - sign as far as I know ;-) )
While I wrote two spellings - one for the curve of the thumb and the next
time the same movement showing (describing) the curve of the baby-finger - I
found out - that the end and startpositions have to be placed differently in
order not to confuse the reader.

So - please have a look at my "work-sheet" and let me know - if you donīt
agree with this .

(I know that YOU (Valerie) are working behind the scenes very hard - so
donīt feel pushed to do anything if you donīt feel comfortable!)

(When I write these signs - I use another methaper for me myself. I think of
a boxingglove . It is round and you can paint the arrows in front or
behind ) looking from above - you can imagine - how the arrows (curved
because of the curved surface of the glove) would move while you rotate your
arm clockwise or counterclockwise - Just in case somebody is interested !)

Stefan ;-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie Sutton
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: rotation symbols and directions

> At 4:21 AM -0700 7/7/00, Ingvild Roald wrote:
> >I am confused too. Because sometimes the little finger is supposed
> >to lead, and sometimes the thumb. How would an outsider know which
> >one 'felt' right? The rotations made in ASL feels all wrong in
> >Norwegian SL, so, as I know I have said before, I would prefer
> >symbols to mean 'clockwise' and 'anti-clockwise'. Then we would know
> >what was meant.
> >(I just had to go back into the sign file for the paper that is to
> >be posted soon, to change the ASL 'ion' rotation - I had forgotten
> >when I first wrote the sign that even if the handshapes are exatly
> >the same as in NoSL and in FiSL, the rotation is opposite).
> >Ingvild
> SignWriting List
> July 7, 2000
> Hello Everyone, and Ingvild and Stefan -
> Yes. I know. I understand the confusion, and I also understand that I
> have not been able to explain myself properly. I have some neat ideas
> for illustrations that will take care of this - at least I hope they
> will!
> Meanwhile I am no artist and words are rediculous to explain such
> things. But I can try. Please see the attached GIF.
> First, you can write EITHER the baby finger OR the thumb pattern -
> either one is fine and readable to an outsider. The idea of "feeling"
> is thrown out...there are some concrete rules.
> You are welcome to use the term clockwise or counter clockwise...that
> is fine with me. Both the thumb and the baby finger can go either
> clockwise or counter clockwise depending on the motion.
> Do not assume that ASL does "this or that" - I have no idea what ASL
> does! I know the sign for "signing" in ASL rotates one direction in
> one ASL dialect, and rotates the opposite in another ASL dialect...I
> have seen it with my own I am not sure which ASL dialect
> you are writing.
> I am looking forward to teaching the seminar to the teachers in New
> Mexico on July 20th, because I have a new way to teach the rotation
> symbols and I want to share with them. But it is a "demonstration"
> kind of teaching. The same demonstration in person, has to be
> captured in illustrations and in print, and that will take me time.
> I hope you won't change your dictionaries just because Valerie Sutton
> needs some better teaching materials - ha!
> The writing system will evolve and improve anyway, and all
> dictionaries will go through changes. I am sure your dictionary is
> excellent right now, and is the best under the circumstances I have
> handed you.
> My word description of the GIF below:
> Try to imagine that your arm is an axis (a straight line up and
> down). It is encased inside a clear plastic tube that encircles the
> entire arm. On the baby finger, you have a pencil with the point
> sticking out touching the tube. The same kind of pencil is also on
> your thumb. So imagine the silly picture of a hand with a pencil on
> both the baby fingers and thumb, inside a clear plastic tube!
> Now imagine rotating that arm and hand. The pencils will make marks
> on the tube. The marks are the arrows on the rotation symbols. You
> can use either the baby finger's mark, or the thumb's mark - it
> doesn't matter.
> Meanwhile, your paper is at a slant. The top of your page is closer
> to the front wall (away from you). The bottom of your page is closer
> to your chest (close to you). So the curve reflects that too...the
> curve drawn by the finger that is further away from you (wall in
> front of you) will be curving up since that is going towards the top
> of the page, and the curve that is closer to your chest, will be
> curving down, towards your chest...please see attached GIF:

rotation thumb babyfinger illustration.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 5k

  Replies Author Date
3769 Re: rotation symbols and directions Valerie Sutton Fri  7/7/2000
3770 Re: rotation symbols and directions Valerie Sutton Fri  7/7/2000

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